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Originally Posted By: quante
kenrico has a point. Our most recent preemptive invasion of Iraq did create a credibility gap.

Does not excuse the Russkies actions, but we are hardly in a position to be indignant about it based on some violation of international law.

As pure raw politik, we can try to stop increased Russian power and influence. I'm all for that.

Do you believe as kenrico believes, that both actions are based on a desire for oil?
Originally Posted By: quante
Swiftus has a point. Our most recent preemptive invasion of Iraq did create a credibility gap.

Does not excuse the Russkies actions, but we are hardly in a position to be indignant about it based on some violation of international law.

As pure raw politik, we can try to stop increased Russian power and influence. I'm all for that.


Anyone who tries to compare Iraq to Georgia is writing for the Krasnaya Zvezda or is, well, Kenrico. What a minute, I'm being redundant again.
Originally Posted By: DirtDiablo


Let me get this straight. S. Ossetia a part of Georgia has been trying to assert its ethnic identity from an oppressive democratic gov't of Georgia (accusations of genocide and ethnic cleansing by gov't forces). Was Russia supposed to sit by as its former citizens get slaughtered ?

I am sure it was a flanking manuever by the Russians to take a port city of Abkhazia. Any way it seems that cooler heads have prevailed for the time being.


Abkazia isn't a port city. It's an entire region. And it's been occupied off and on by the Russians since Georgia's independence.
Originally Posted By: Swiftus
Any flag waving, American neo-fascist militaristic cocksucker who supports the current Iraq invasion needs to take the George W. Bush flavored dildo out of their ass, stuff it down their throat, get over themselves and their 60 year old military victories in Europe, and shut the fuck up about the Russians and Georgia.

You've already shown yourselves to be too fucking stupid to have your opinions regarded as anything but the sheer ignorance they are.

Swiftus has spoken.


Swiftus Fatuus Puellus

Originally Posted By: DirtDiablo


Let me get this straight. S. Ossetia a part of Georgia has been trying to assert its ethnic identity from an oppressive democratic gov't of Georgia (accusations of genocide and ethnic cleansing by gov't forces). Was Russia supposed to sit by as its former citizens get slaughtered ?

I am sure it was a flanking manuever by the Russians to take a port city of Abkhazia. Any way it seems that cooler heads have prevailed for the time being.


The citizens of Souther Ossetia have never been former citizens of Russia. If the argument is that they were once citizens of the Soviet Union...well, so were the Georgians. And that didn't stop the Russians from slaughtering them. Southern Ossitians want unification with Northern Ossentia. For the same reason Russia didn't want to lose Chechnya to succession, Georgia has no intention of giving up its land to Velikaya Ossetia.
Originally Posted By: Mars
Originally Posted By: quante
kenrico has a point. Our most recent preemptive invasion of Iraq did create a credibility gap.

Does not excuse the Russkies actions, but we are hardly in a position to be indignant about it based on some violation of international law.

As pure raw politik, we can try to stop increased Russian power and influence. I'm all for that.

Do you believe as kenrico believes, that both actions are based on a desire for oil?


No. First, the oil is not in Georgia. There is a pipeline that moves oil from Caspian Sea, so controlling the pipeline gives you power to control oil supply. Second, Russia has plenty of oil. That has allowed them to survive the total collapse of their economy.

But is is more their interest to assert their power in their sphere of influence. Sort of like us invading Panama back in the day or Grenada or taking Texas from Mexico way back when. Pure desire for power and hegemony over others.

And is Swiftus really Kenrico?

Originally Posted By: Julius
Originally Posted By: DirtDiablo


Let me get this straight. S. Ossetia a part of Georgia has been trying to assert its ethnic identity from an oppressive democratic gov't of Georgia (accusations of genocide and ethnic cleansing by gov't forces). Was Russia supposed to sit by as its former citizens get slaughtered ?

I am sure it was a flanking manuever by the Russians to take a port city of Abkhazia. Any way it seems that cooler heads have prevailed for the time being.


Abkazia isn't a port city. It's an entire region. And it's been occupied off and on by the Russians since Georgia's independence.


Correct you are I was trying to be brief in my military strategy using the map as a visual aid. Also yep it wants to be one region/country and not split. So goes to show how power corrupts.....

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In the basement at St. Johns well I found her where she fell

Just another busted sister of Heartbreak Hotel

Originally Posted By: Mars
I could be very wrong, but he is most certainly someone from the past.


Well it could just be a new asshole but given the attitude more than likely one who has come back cause they got tired of whacking each other off. So are the old names banned or are they just too embarrassed to reveal themselves?

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In the basement at St. Johns well I found her where she fell

Just another busted sister of Heartbreak Hotel

Originally Posted By: DirtDiablo
Originally Posted By: Julius
Originally Posted By: DirtDiablo


Let me get this straight. S. Ossetia a part of Georgia has been trying to assert its ethnic identity from an oppressive democratic gov't of Georgia (accusations of genocide and ethnic cleansing by gov't forces). Was Russia supposed to sit by as its former citizens get slaughtered ?

I am sure it was a flanking manuever by the Russians to take a port city of Abkhazia. Any way it seems that cooler heads have prevailed for the time being.


Abkazia isn't a port city. It's an entire region. And it's been occupied off and on by the Russians since Georgia's independence.


Correct you are I was trying to be brief in my military strategy using the map as a visual aid. Also yep it wants to be one region/country and not split. So goes to show how power corrupts.....


And the argument that Russia was trying to relieve the poor Southern Ossentians (this is sounding like a Peter Sellers movie) is comical. They killed everything in their path, to include the poor Southern Ossetians. It was hardly the cavalry coming in to save the day.

This was not a quick reaction to something the Georgians did. This was an operation planned for months. You don't make something like this happen on a dime. Putin knew exactly what he was doing, and when he was doing it, for a long time.
Originally Posted By: Julius
This was not a quick reaction to something the Georgians did. This was an operation planned for months. You don't make something like this happen on a dime. Putin knew exactly what he was doing, and when he was doing it, for a long time.


Jules, I think I know what you mean here, but you need to spell it out more for folks who don't have a military background. I have no doubt the Russian General Staff has had a plan on the books for doing this sort of thing in the same way we have plans on the books for various operations (whether we have any present intention of executing them or not).

That said, someone pulled it off the shelf, dusted it off, made sure it wasn't flawed, got logistics in place, moved troops to the border, etc. and that doesn't happen overnight or on a whim either ...
If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.
Originally Posted By: Julius
Do you suggest he ought to do otherwise? I imagine that the 82nd/101st and a Carrier Wing could do some serious damage to the Russians. But I don't think that's an option that has ever been on the table.


Only in Cheney's wet dreams. Agreed wasn't a "round up a posse" action. The timing was brilliant and the scorch and burn technique effective.

Let's see what Condi can do. Maybe she will play a concert featuring anti war songs.

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In the basement at St. Johns well I found her where she fell

Just another busted sister of Heartbreak Hotel

The message has been clear from Putin. He can do whatever he wants in the former Soviet Union - even poisoning Ukrainian Presidential candidates - and there's nothing the world will do about it.

And interesting debate I've been reading is about whether this would have happened had Georgia already been admitted to NATO.

And Cheney's not an idiot. He doesn't want a war with the Russians. He didn't want one in 1991 during the coup (and he was SecDef), and he certainly doesn't want one now. The idea that he's a toothless, salivating warmonger is silly. He does what he believes is in the nation's interest - and going to war with Russia over Georgia doesn't meet that level.
Originally Posted By: Julius
The message has been clear from Putin. He can do whatever he wants in the former Soviet Union - even poisoning Ukrainian Presidential candidates - and there's nothing the world will do about it.

And interesting debate I've been reading is about whether this would have happened had Georgia already been admitted to NATO.

And Cheney's not an idiot. He doesn't want a war with the Russians. He didn't want one in 1991 during the coup (and he was SecDef), and he certainly doesn't want one now. The idea that he's a toothless, salivating warmonger is silly. He does what he believes is in the nation's interest - and going to war with Russia over Georgia doesn't meet that level.


It's a snub by Cheney to the Russians.

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In the basement at St. Johns well I found her where she fell

Just another busted sister of Heartbreak Hotel

Originally Posted By: Julius
?This is not 1968 and the invasion of Czechoslovakia where Russia can threaten a neighbor, occupy a capital, overthrow a government and get away with it,? Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said. ?Things have changed.?

Diplomacy in action.

Yeah her and what army? Putin just dipped into the candy store and took what ever they wanted and rubbed NATO's face in the poop left behind.

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In the basement at St. Johns well I found her where she fell

Just another busted sister of Heartbreak Hotel

Yep boot them from the G-8.

Russia will always be the US's Joker. They need each other to remind the children that the boogie man does exist.

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In the basement at St. Johns well I found her where she fell

Just another busted sister of Heartbreak Hotel

McCain had told Georgian president that the US has got their back no matter what.
I thought we already had a president and his name is GW Bush not McCain.

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In the basement at St. Johns well I found her where she fell

Just another busted sister of Heartbreak Hotel

Originally Posted By: DirtDiablo
Yep boot them from the G-8.

Russia will always be the US's Joker. They need each other to remind the children that the boogie man does exist.


Russia has got a serious Kenrico-phallus-infirmus complex after getting whacked in Afghanistan, getting whacked out of Europe, losing the Baltic states, losing in everything basically except for chess and cross country skiing. And they still have about 10k nuclear weapons (some of which can actually get off the ground).
Originally Posted By: Julius
Originally Posted By: DirtDiablo
Yep boot them from the G-8.

Russia will always be the US's Joker. They need each other to remind the children that the boogie man does exist.


Russia has got a serious Kenrico-phallus-infirmus complex after getting whacked in Afghanistan, getting whacked out of Europe, losing the Baltic states, losing in everything basically except for chess and cross country skiing. And they still have about 10k nuclear weapons (some of which can actually get off the ground).


Apparently the US wasn't paying attention to what happened to the USSR in Afghanistan cause we dove right in with minimal planning and poor execution. Like I said great timing on their part for invading while the world is absorbed by terrorism.

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In the basement at St. Johns well I found her where she fell

Just another busted sister of Heartbreak Hotel

I don't know what you mean. How did we dive right into with minimal planning and poor execution? Into what?

Are you suggesting that we didn't pay attention to the losses USSR suffered in Afghanistan, and that you're comparing our operations there to their humiliating defeat? Please tell me that you know more about history than that.
Originally Posted By: DirtDiablo
Originally Posted By: Julius
Originally Posted By: DirtDiablo
Yep boot them from the G-8.

Russia will always be the US's Joker. They need each other to remind the children that the boogie man does exist.


Russia has got a serious Kenrico-phallus-infirmus complex after getting whacked in Afghanistan, getting whacked out of Europe, losing the Baltic states, losing in everything basically except for chess and cross country skiing. And they still have about 10k nuclear weapons (some of which can actually get off the ground).


Apparently the US wasn't paying attention to what happened to the USSR in Afghanistan cause we dove right in with minimal planning and poor execution. Like I said great timing on their part for invading while the world is absorbed by terrorism.


You have no idea what your talking about.
Originally Posted By: Julius
I don't know what you mean. How did we dive right into with minimal planning and poor execution? Into what?

Are you suggesting that we didn't pay attention to the losses USSR suffered in Afghanistan, and that you're comparing our operations there to their humiliating defeat? Please tell me that you know more about history than that.


I am comparing the USSR losses in the Afghanistan to the US invasion of Iraq and the quagmire we are stuck in. We should have learned the lessons from the USSR's defeat which eventually led to the collapse of their nation.

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In the basement at St. Johns well I found her where she fell

Just another busted sister of Heartbreak Hotel

Good comparison. We're definitely on the verse of collapse.

Psst...we won the war in Iraq. I know this is unwelcomed news on the Left, but even you can admit it. Come on. You can do it. Quagmire? What planet do you live on? You need to get down from the hills and get some oxygen.

I won't waste any more electrons (thanks Dana) on the comparison between the geo-politics of 1979 USSR and 2003-8 USA. It's utterly fatuus.

Originally Posted By: Kinsey
Originally Posted By: Julius
Exactly. This action was months in the making. You don't move that number of troops without considerable logistics.


Interesting article in the NY Times that might back up your point:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/technology/13cyber.html?_r=1&em&oref=slogin


I think it's a safe bet to say that cyber warfare is an ongoing activity between many nation states.
Sure, I won't argue with that. Makes you wonder whether a better warning could have been issued to Georgia not to allow itself to be provoked into military manoeuvres in Southern Ossetia, given that a potential cyber threat was developing for some weeks beforehand.
Of course, they had already been warned...
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